Complaints

The complaint text that is displayed might not represent all complaints filed with BBB. Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business.

• Initial Complaint

  Date:10/24/2024

  Type:Service or Repair Issues
  Status:

  AnsweredMore info

  Complaint statuses

  Resolved:

  The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.

  Unresolved:

  The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.

  Answered:

  The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.

  Unanswered:

  The business failed to respond to the dispute.

  Unpursuable:

  BBB is unable to locate the business.

  Valley ********* mows the lawn of my neighbors, the Gillums, at *************************************************************** My backyard borders on the ************* and on 29 July 29 2024, as I was in my yard, I observed a lady driver of a mower mow into my row of panicle hydrangeas, which is on the border between the two properties. I quickly went down to the hydrangeas and saw pieces of two hydrangeas broken off, but the mower crew quickly packed up and left and did not respond to my waiving. When they came back to mow again about a week later, I told one of the crew about the problem and he promised the company would make good on the damage. After that did not occur, I again spoke to a crew member on site mowing, who turned out to be the owner's son (****). He said the mower was his mother and kept trying to prove that his mother could not have done that (for well over an hour). But it was obvious that the hydrangea had been hit as I kept some of the torn off pieces. I told him the hydrangeas are worth $90 each, but said I would accept ***** bags of mulch to put around the hydrangea row so the mowers in future would not come close to the hydrangeas. (This was very nice of me as it is much less than the cost to replace the hydrangeas.) He said he would talk to his father, the owner (***) about it. The son never came back or contacted me or the Gillums about this. The crews that have shown up to mow in September and October are not nice and claim to know nothing about it. As it is nearly Halloween, I have given up on Valley Care. Today, replacing the two hydrangeas would cost $200 ($100 each). 

  Note to BBB: I hope this complaint will remain on the website even if the dispute is resolved meaning-fully so the public knows Valley Care damages property and does not engage in honest, fair business practices. The time I have lost trying to resolve this is unbelievable. 

  Business Response

  Date: 11/11/2024

  In response to this complaint goes as follows. We have been in business for 38 years and this is the first complaint by someone who isn't even our customer. We have been working for Mrs.******* since last year and have been in contact with here on numerous occasions and she has not had any complaints with our services. We work for Mrs. ******* and not for anyone else around her. We have been confronted by the neighbor practically every time we are there to mow. We start to mow and she will come on to Mrs. *******'s property and stop one of our worker or more to complain about something that has nothing to do with her yard. She has held up our workers from doing there job on multiple occasions. ************ is the customer and she is the one who has hired us and she has no issue with our work.

  As far as the bushes she claims we broke a branch off we do not mow around them because you can not get a mower around or between them. Also just a note those type of bushes are to be trimmed back every fall to allow for more growth in the spring. 

  We have spoken to Mrs. ******* on this matter as to what she feels we should do and she wants us to continue mowing and taking care of her property, as for the neighbor if she could just let us do our job and stop confronting our people we would be thankful. She has spoken to several of our guys on different matters and everything is getting confusing for all.

  As for the ***** bags of mulch i have no idea cause we don't sell mulch by the bags and we feel she is just trying to get us to put mulch down for free plus she has stated that she wants us to mow an area that doesn't belong to **** ******* and our people will not do what she wants. She held my son up for an hour complaining and my son respectfully listened but she just went on and on and he needed to get back to work and wasn't able to till she finish complaining. We are at a loss with the neighbor we just want to our job for our customer. 

  Customer Answer

  Date: 11/14/2024

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  This matter involves destruction of property. Under PA law (18 Pa CS 3304), for
  damage totaling $200, the penalty is up to a year in jail, so this is not an insignificant
  matter. ******* ****** could have called the police on Valley ********** but has not
  to date. She also could have filed a lawsuit, but has not. She has really tried to resolve it
  with the least amount of confrontation possible and in an amicable and neighborly
  fashion. She hopes that Owner *** ***** and family will see that.
  

  *** Browns Response is 4 paragraphs long. In this Reply, ******* ****** will take
  each paragraph in turn. The Owner has never been to the property and his Response
  reflects this. It contains mistakes, misunderstandings, and misrepresentations. As an
  example, ******* Redmans neighbors are ****** and ****** ******. This Reply will
  not repeat those errors. The correct name ****** will be used here, while Owner ***
  ***** refers to his client as Mrs. ******** (She is the reference point. Her husband is
  ill and incapable of handling such matters.) ******* ****** is also going to correct a
  few other errors here (like replacing there with their and placing commas to make it
  easier to read.) And she is going to use the names ****** ******, ******* ******,
  Owner *** *****, son **** ***** to prevent confusion.
  

  Paragraph 1 of Owners Response:
  

  1.1 *** ***** argues that ****** ****** has not had any complaint with our
  services.
  

  Actually, she does. ****** talked to ****** ****** after receiving *** Browns
  Response in the afternoon of Veterans Day 2024. ****** ****** told ****** she
  likes Valley *********s mowing job, but is not for them damaging Redmans
  property. She believes the company should compensate ****** for the damage.
  She also told ****** that the Owner, *** *****, called her and said he would
  stop by and talk to her and ******* ****** about this, but he never followed
  through. Perhaps Valley ********* thinks complaints have to be filed with the
  police, in court, or at agencies/organizations to be real complaints. That is not the
  case. Often people who find fault with a company do not undertake formal action
  against them (for a wide range of reasons), but a complaint exists. The Owner
  cannot know ****** ******* position because he never stopped by and talked to
  her and ******.
  

  Note that even if ****** ****** defended the company causing property damage
  (and she does not), it is against the law, a criminal offense with a penalty of up to a
  year in jail.
  

  1.2 *** ***** states that he works for ****** ******, not for ******* ******,
  clearly implying that damaging the neighboring property is fine and has no
  consequences.
  

  This is his primary argument and it is very wrongheaded. Both the lawn care
  company and the ******* are responsible for damaging Redmans hydrangeas, the
  company for the actions, the ******* for hiring the company.
  

  1.3 *** ***** complains: we have been confronted by the neighbor practically
  every time we are there to mow.
  

  ******* ****** admits there was a main confrontation in August 2024 with the
  Owners son, ****, after the Owners wife damaged two hydrangeas while
  mowing. ******* Redmans row of hydrangeas is a border between the ******
  and ****** properties (as is the brook a border between the properties). When the
  Owners wife was mowing on a riding mower in July 2024, she veered into the
  hydrangeas and damaged two of them. ****** was on her property working in a
  garden bed, saw the incident, and waved to the workers as they quickly packed up
  and left. None of the crew responded; it looked like they ignored her because of
  the damage.
  

  Of course ****** is going to confront mowers when they damage expensive
  hydrangeas. She has a duty to confront them as soon as possible after the event so
  they can view the damage while reasonably fresh.
  

  But in general this statement is not accurate. There were times when the mowers
  came when ****** was not home. There were times when they came and she did
  not talk to them. Moreover, the word confront has a negative connotation, as in to
  be confrontational, yet ****** has always been friendly.
  

  ****** also admits she came out to talk to workers, most of the time to make sure
  they knew where the borders were, because ****** has been mowing a whole lot
  of the Gillums yard, which is not fair, especially since she is disabled. Because
  Valley ********* almost always sends out different people, ******* ****** has
  to repeat conversations about where the ******-****** boundaries lie. She
  mowed both yards, which merge into one another, so there would be no strips of
  tall grass here and there. That was extremely generous and courteous of ******.
  She expected Valley ********* to thank her, not criticize her or propagate
  inaccurate information to get out of mowing areas that belong to the Gillums.
  Really, ****** ****** should take care of boundary problems, but she is busy
  taking care of her sick husband and her grandchild. Despite this, never has
  ******* ****** been rude or unfriendly to the company or her neighbor. On the
  other hand, *** Browns son, ****, was angry when ******* ****** showed
  him the damage to the hydrangeas. He definitely raised his voice. And he spent
  over an hour trying to prove that the damage to the hydrangeas could not have
  been caused by his mother mowing into them. But in the end, he did accept that
  the mower damaged the hydrangeas and said he would talk to his dad about
  providing mulch as compensation.
  

  1.4 Owner *** ***** complains that ******* ****** almost always comes onto
  

  ****** ******* property and stops one of the Valley ********* workers to
  complain about something that has to do with her yard.
  

  This is not clear: does the word her refer to ****** ****** or ******* ******?
  At any rate, when ****** complains, it involves issues that affect both yards,
  such as the hydrangea damage (on the border) and the failure of the mowers to cut
  all of the ****** lawn along the brook (another border between the properties) so
  ****** has to cut it to keep the lawns looking nice.
  

  ****** has spoken to her neighbor ****** ****** and told her sometimes she
  would be on the ****** side while working to improve her (Redmans) property or
  cut lawn on the ****** side left by the mowers. ****** ****** never objected.
  (And why would she? ****** has been more than neighborly; she has been
  actively improving the ****** property.)
  

  Keep in mind that Redmans being on the ****** lawn is none of Valley Lawn
  Cares concern. It is a private matter.
  

  ****** had to come onto ****** ******* property to talk to the crew members,
  who were on the ****** property. She has talked to ****** ****** about being
  on her lawn at times and Ms. ****** is fine with that. ****** ****** also knows
  very well that ****** mows or gets someone to use a weed ****** to trim down
  the parts of the lawn ignored by Valley *********.
  

  1.5 The Owner claims ****** held up the workers from doing their job.
  

  Yes, it does take time to talk to people. But they did their job wrong and damaged
  Redmans property and they did not know the property lines and thus did not mow
  all of Gillums lawn, resulting in ****** having to go back through and mow the
  neglected spots. ****** should not have to repeatedly tell crews made up of
  different members where the boundary line is. And when she tells them, they often
  still do not mow all the ****** lawn. They get paid and ****** does not: Unfair.
  If ****** had not complained at the time, Owner *** ***** would criticize her
  for failing to complain when the incidents happened. You cannot have it both
  ways.
  

  Paragraph 2 of Owners Response:
  

  2.1 The Owner says ******* ****** claims we broke off a branch.
  

  This is inaccurate. As ******* ****** said in her Complaint, two hydrangeas
  were mowed into and multiple branches were snapped off. ******* ******
  saved some of them as proof. This resulted in two lopsided hydrangeas. One
  hydrangea is half its size with one side intact and the other side gone. A quarter of
  a second is missing.
  

  Notably, Owner *** ***** does not take responsibility for the damage and does
  not acknowledge directly that his company damaged the hydrangeas.
  

  2.2 The Owner stresses they do not mow around the hydrangeas.
  

  This is unclear. Does that mean he believes the mowers would have to mow
  between the hydrangeas to snap off branches? ******* ****** never claimed the
  mowers mowed between plants. She claims his wife veered into the bushes as she
  was looking at something, presumably her cell phone. His wife did not drive
  between them, but certainly was not driving parallel to the row.
  

  Note that the hydrangeas are in a row about 31 feet long on Redmans property.
  The edge of the Gillums lawn starts 25"-30" away from their bases. The ground
  around the hydrangeas is mulched, including the 25"-30" from the base of each
  plant to the *****************. The mulch makes the hydrangea row stand out so the
  mowers have to see it if paying attention. The mowing crew should mow parallel
  to the row, which is lightly curved, but not on the mulch. That is what the female
  driver was doing when she suddenly veered into the row because she was looking
  at something (probably her phone). Except for that instance, the mowing crew has
  never gotten on Redmans property. ****** has never asked them to mow her
  lawn or the mulched ground around the hydrangeas.
  

  ****** planted the shrubs to divide the properties. They greatly beautify and
  raise the value of the properties. The hydrangeas sit on Redmans property, but as
  they grow, their branches and blooms may lean into the ****** property. Because
  the ground was broken up and tilled and mulched all around the hydrangeas, it was
  easy to see where to mow. Two hydrangeas got hit by the riding mower because
  *** Browns wife was looking at something while mowing and veered into them.
  No one should mow between the plants, just along the row on *****************. There
  is mulch between the plants and all around them. Since this incident, ******
  doubled the size of the tilled and mulched ground facing the ****** lawn.
  

  2.3 The Owner also states in paragraph 2 that hydrangeas are to be trimmed back
  every fall to allow for more growth in the spring.
  

  This creates ambiguity. Is it justification for damaging the hydrangeas? But no
  one would cut off half or a quarter of symmetrically shaped hydrangeas.
  It also happens to be false. Hydrangeas should be trimmed, if needed, in March or
  early April. Dont take ******* Redmans word for it. Go to any source on
  hydrangeas. Here is an example online: How to Grow and Care for Panicle
  Hydrangeas. Southern Living (online).************************************************************
  panicle-hydrangrea. In the section on pruning, it says: Because it blooms on new
  growth, winter and early spring before the plant leafs out are good times to prune.
  Pruning is not strictly necessary, but can be used to strengthen stems or reshape the
  shrub.
  

  There was no need to trim either of the damaged hydrangeas. They had beautiful
  shapes and strong stems. Now the only way to get lovely symmetrical plants is to
  prune them all the way down and wait years for them to grow the 4'-5' size they are
  today. ****** specifically planted hydrangeas that were quite tall because she
  wanted to create a border and privacy screen between the properties.
  

  Paragraph 3 of Owners Response:
  

  3.1 Owner *** ***** says in paragraph 3: We have spoken to Mrs. ****** on this
  matter as to what she feels we should do and she wants us to continue mowing and
  taking care of her property. [A]s for the neighbor, if she could just let us do our job
  and stop confronting our people, we would be thankful. She has spoken to several
  of our guys on different matters and everything is getting confusing for all.
  By we, Owner *** ***** means he spoke to ****** ******. He should say that.
  After receiving the Owners Response on 11 November, ****** called ******
  ****** to ensure that the information in this Reply is accurate. According to Ms.
  ******, Owner *** ***** spoke to her briefly over the phone and promised to
  stop by the property, view the site, and talk to her and ******* ****** at the
  same time, but never followed through. ****** ****** told ****** she likes
  Valley *********s mowing job, but is not for them damaging Redmans property,
  specifically the hydrangeas. She believes ****** should be compensated for the
  damage. ****** ****** said *** ***** also said he was mad about Redmans
  insisting the company address the damage. If ****** were to accidentally drive
  over one of the Valley *********s mowers with a tractor, damaging it, wouldnt
  the Owner expect ****** to make it good? Several of the guys on the crews
  assured ****** the company would make it good. If ****** (who also runs a
  business) damaged someones property, she would not only make it good; she
  would apologize profusely.
  

  3.2 Owner *** ***** complains that things are getting confusing when he and his
  team just keep giving ******* ****** different answers. The company would
  make it good (a crew member), the company would get ****** mulch as
  compensation (**** *****), Owner *** ***** would meet with ****** and
  ****** ****** and then adidnt, and more. This is a common technique used by
  companies: wear the wronged person down by a war of attrition, which is not an
  honest business practice.
  

  Paragraph 4 of Owners Response:
  

  4.1 Owner *** ***** claims ******* ****** wants free mulch.
  

  This is blatant misrepresentation and just plain outrageous. ****** never asked
  for free mulch. In August 2024 when she talked to **** *****, the Owners son,
  they discussed how to repair the damage to the two hydrangeas. ****** said she
  was going to add more mulch around the hydrangeas and would take the mulch as
  compensation (***** bags). At the time, **** ***** wanted to know why she
  would agree to a lot less than the value of replacing the hydrangeas. ****** told
  him she was wanted to show goodwill and was going to mulch the hydrangeas
  even farther out so it would be very hard for the mowers, even when not paying
  attention, to veer into and damage her hydrangeas. **** ***** said he would talk
  to his dad, the Owner, and get back to her, but he never did.
  

  It should be obvious, but ******* ****** should not have to mulch around her
  plants to protect them from the mowing crews. These are her hydrangeas on her
  land, not the Gillums land.
  

  4.2 The Owner claims ******* ****** wanted his company to mow her lawn for
  free. (she has stated that she wants us to mow an area that doesnt belong to Mrs.
  ******....).
  

  This is blatant misrepresentation and just plain outrageous. ******* ****** has
  never asked the crew to mow her yard. But she has asked them to mow all of the
  Gillums lawn so she does not have to do it. (Otherwise there will be strips of tall
  grass and weeds, which looks horrible.) ****** and Gillums yards form a
  continuous area of lawn, rectangular in shape (about 200 feet long and rolling
  downhill), that looks very nice when well cared for. Valley *********
  consistently fails to mow the area along the brook (and in the brook when it dries
  up) so ****** has to mow it (lots of lawn) to prevent strips of tall grass/weeds.
  Apparently Owner *** ***** feels he and his crews are experts on the boundary
  when they cannot be. The boundary stakes are gone. ******* ****** is having
  her land surveyed so the boundaries will be clear at a cost of nearly $1,000. This
  should not be necessary and is a burden placed on her. It is ridiculous since
  ****** and ****** ****** agree that they share the meandering brook as a
  boundary line.
  

  4.3 The Owner claims ******* ****** held up his son for an hour complaining,
  that **** ***** respectfully listened, and she went on and on when he
  needed to work.
  

  This is blatant misrepresentation and just plain outrageous since it was ******
  who tried to shorten the conversation. This was in August 2024 when *******
  ****** pointed out the damage to the two hydrangeas. **** ***** just kept
  saying his mother could not have damaged the hydrangeas, but it was obvious from
  their irregular shapes and from the snapped off branches lying on the ground that
  fit the damaged bases and stems of the plants. He really did not want to give in.
  (It was his mother who was driving the mower and he kept reminding ****** that
  this was his family.) The fact is, ****** would never engage in a conversation of
  more than 4-5 minutes because it would make her sick. She cannot use her electric
  scooter in the lawn and standing really makes her ill. She was so sick after being
  held up that she could not work or get herself meals that evening and the next day.
  It was a good week before her (serious) medical condition was stabilized.
  **** ***** did not respectfully listen. He raised his voice. His tone was nasty,
  but he did finally agree on mulch and said he would talk to his father and get back
  to ******, something that never happened.
  

  Conclusion
  

  This is a very amicable Reply. ******* ****** only asks for the $200 for the two
  hydrangeas. She does not ask for compensation for
  

  (1) mowing the ****** yard at the borders
  

  (2) mulching a wide area around the row of hydrangeas, costing her easily $100
  in mulch and over 100 hours to prepare the area, plant and care for the
  plants, and then after the incident expand the mulched area towards the
  ****** yard (so it is now 25"-30" from plant bases) to protect the
  hydrangeas from the mowers,
  

  (3) her time complaining to the company, ****** ******, and the BBB.
   ****** hopes *** ***** and his family will see it is in the best interest to settle this
  now and not move to other arenas like the police or courts. In addition, the Owner will
  show his son, **** *****, and the members of the crew who clearly believed the
  company would act honestly that the company really will make it good. And it will likely
  leave the company with a positive rating at the BBB.

  Regards,
  
  ******* ******

  Business Response

  Date: 11/23/2024

  It is nearly impossible to be using a cell phone while operating a zero turn mower unless you have head phones or earbuds which (my wife personally does not use). If neither device is being used it would be hard to hear a phone ringing while mower is running. Claiming that my wife was on the phone and veered into the bushes is a false statement.

  Furthermore, I have been to the site to check out the plants for myself. I have seen no physical damage to the plants. I have taken photos and measurements of the plants and spoke with the home owners (our customer).

  ******* ****** has never contacted our company with any of these matters or concerns, she has only spoken with the workers that have been on the Gillums property.

  Customer Answer

  Date: 11/29/2024

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  1) Owner *** ***** says it is nearly impossible to use a cell phone while
  operating a zero turn mower unless you have head phones or earbuds (which my
  wife does not use). He adds that without them, it would be hard to hear a phone
  ringing while mower is running. The third and last sentence states: Claiming
  that my wife was on the phone and veered into the bushes is a false statement.
  But ******* ****** never claimed that the lady driving the riding mower (the
  Owners wife) was on the phone. For instance, ****** stated in her 11-13-2024
  Reply in section 2.2 that the Owners wife veered into her hydrangeas because
  she was looking at something (probably her phone). ****** does not know
  exactly what his wife was looking at. She guessed it was a phone. And so the
  Owner *** ***** argument misses the point. It is not disputed that the lady
  driver veered into Redmans hydrangeas and damaged two of them.

  (2) In the second paragraph, Owner *** ***** states: Furthermore, I have been to
  the site to check out the plants myself. I have seen no physical damage to the
  plants. I have taken photos and measurements of the plants and spoke with the
  home owners (our customers).

  If the Owner visited the ****************, he should have invited ****** ******
  and ******* ****** to the hydrangea to discuss the matter. This did not occur
  because the Owner knows ****** would have shown him the damaged plants, the
  first and third hydrangeas. (Viewed from the Gillums backyard, the first
  hydrangea is the closest to the brook; the third is two plants down from the first.)
  The third plant is most damaged, lopsided as its right side is intact while the entire
  left side is gone. The first plant lost about a quarter of its original side, most in the
  front and on its left side. Had Owner *** ***** met ******* ****** and
  ****** ****** on site, ****** would have shown him a large piece (roughly 27"
  long and 24" wide) and several smaller pieces of the third plant that was broken
  off. The Owner didnt do that because he doesnt want to admit his company
  caused the damage.
  
  Owner *** ***** says he took pictures of the hydrangeas and took measurements.

  He should reproduce the pictures and measurements and make his

  argument explicit. (Unfortunately, ******* ****** does not own a smart phone
  so she cannot provide photos. She does, however, have some of the branches that
  were broken off and anyone can view them. **** *****, some crew members,
  and ****** ****** have all seen the broken hydrangeas.)

  It should be noted that the damage to the plants will be clearer when the plants get
  their foliage in the spring-summer and go into bloom. Right now they are
  completely devoid of leaves and have dried blooms.
  

  Owner *** ***** says he spoke with ****** ******, but does not say what was
  said. He needs to elaborate and make his point. ******* ****** has shown
  ****** ****** the two damaged hydrangeas and told her the story (the crew
  promised to make good on the damage, Owners son **** promised to talk to his
  father about it, the Owner told his crew he was coming to the site and then never
  showed, etc.) and Ms. ****** agrees with ******* ****** that Valley Lawn Care
  should compensate ****** for the property damage.
  

  (3) The third paragraph is one sentence: ******* ****** has never contacted our
  company with any of these matters or concerns, she has only spoken with the
  workers that have been on the Gillums property.

  This simply is not true. She spoke to the Owners son ****, who then promised to
  speak with his Owner father and get back to her. At that time (August 2024),
  ******* ****** indicated she would have accepted 20 bags of mulch (or
  equivalent of loose mulch), which was cheaper than replacing the hydrangeas. But
  after promising to get back to ******, **** ***** never appeared on the
  property again (as far as ****** knows). When the mowers came the next, she
  went out to the row of hydrangeas expecting to talk to him, but he wasnt there.
  There seems to be an attempt here to make it seem as if ******* ****** used the
  wrong complaint procedure. That is wrong. It was hard to get the company name.
  When ****** talked to **** *****, he refused to give her his name; she later
  learned it from other crew members. On another occasion, crew members told
  ****** the Owner was coming so she waited at the row of hydrangeas for at least
  20 minutes. He did not come. (****** has much better things to do than try to
  track people down, wait for people who then never showed, and more.) Moreover,
  if something goes wrong, the person who suffered damage or had a problem/
  concern should be able to talk to crew members on site and have it easily resolved.

  No human being is perfect. How they react when there is a problem shows their
  decency or lack of it. Owner *** ***** now has an opportunity to act with
  integrity and compensate ****** for the damage. (****** ended up paying the
  cost of preparing the hydrangea border for mulch and then procuring and laying far
  more than 20 bags of mulch to make the hydrangea border very clear. She has also
  lost an amazing amount of time trying to resolve this in amicable fashion.

  A point was left out of the Owners 11-25-2024 Response: In the last paragraph of the
  Owner *** Browns original Response he claimed that ******* ****** was trying to
  get his company to mow an area that doesnt belong to our people and our people will
  not do what she wants. ****** disputes this (see section 4.2 of her 11-13-2024 Reply).
  

  So this is clear, Owner *** ***** needs to explain exactly where that area is.
  

  Again, ****** still hopes ***** family will see it is in their best interest to settle this
  now and not move to other arenas like the police, courts, or other arenas.

  
  ******* ******