Complaints

The complaint text that is displayed might not represent all complaints filed with BBB. Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business.

• Initial Complaint

  Date:11/06/2024

  Type:Product Issues
  Status:

  UnresolvedMore info

  Complaint statuses

  Resolved:

  The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.

  Unresolved:

  The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.

  Answered:

  The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.

  Unanswered:

  The business failed to respond to the dispute.

  Unpursuable:

  BBB is unable to locate the business.

  I enrolled in the Sept 13, 2024 3-day Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue course for $750. In my conversation with them, I was told that I would receive the same (or more) skills training as their Alpinism I course, just without the day of rock climbing and the summit attempt of *************. However, I did not receive the same skills training as Alpinism I. I contacted them, and I was told that I was wrong to expect to receive the same skills training: The curriculum does not cover everything in Alpinism I. Nobody on staff would have told you that. We don't have any entry level employees at this time that would have made that kind of mistake. The curriculum you're referencing is from a different program. Also I said that everything in the Glacier Skills Course is included in the Alpinism 1, but you are thinking the other way around. I am sorry that you misunderstood what I said, but your expectation to cover that extra curriculumis baseless. However, I have the audio recording from my phone conversation, and what was said is actually the opposite relationship and also reiterates they have the same curriculum: "... all the skills that are in ******** I are directly in the Glacier Skills course ... just we dont have the day of rock climbing and we dont have the summit attempt in there ... its all the same crampon and ice axe techniques, self-arrest maneuvers, crevasse rescue, like, all that stuff is - is basically if you take that Glacier Skills course, you pop it right into the Alpinism I and its the same curriculum there. The business has not attempted to resolve the problem.

  Business Response

  Date: 11/08/2024

  **** had originally been interested in taking the full 6-day Alpinism 1 course. The phone conversation that **** is referencing in his note is only about a 3 minute snippet of what was actually an hour and 7 minute long conversation. I discussed with him the similarities of the Alpinism 1 and the 3-day Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue Course. They contain the same snow and glacier curriculum, but there are extra components in the longer course that are not included in the shorter program. However, he was an experienced rock climber already, so he didnt need the rock climbing instruction that was part of the Alpinism 1 course. So I actually talked him out of paying for a longer, more expensive program and instead directed him to something that was shorter and better fit his needs. I was truly trying to give him the best value for his dollar. If I was trying to take advantage of him, why would I have urged him towards a less expensive program? 

  By the end of our hour-long conversation, he acknowledged that they wouldn't be summiting ************* at the end of the Glacier Skills course and he had told me that he was going to do a separate session of guided climbs with us after the Glacier Skills course. When he registered for the Glacier Skills course, he also registered for a private Mt. Shuksan climb to start on the 16th (the day after the end of the Glacier Skills course). This can be seen in the notes on the Registration page for the course that I am attaching to this response. However, after he was prompted for payment of the later trip, he told us that he had to cancel that because he needed to be home and that he was going to do a summit climb on his own some other time. Yes, there are extra skills in the Alpinism 1 course that are covered during the rock climbing day. But it was very clear that he was not getting the day of rock climbing and the associated skills with that, as well as the summit. Again, the glacier travel techniques, the self arrest maneuvers, and the crevasse rescue skills all were included - both in what he was told that he would receive and what was actually presented in the course.
  

  On top of everything else, all of the other participants in the course who submitted evaluation of the program gave the instructor and the curriculum top reviews and were completely satisfied with the program. Historically, we poll other participants this way to gather a broader picture of how the course went or if parts of the program had issues. In this instance, none of the other participants expressed that the curriculum was lacking. I have included the other two reviews that we received for the program. There were other participants, but they never furnished responses to our request for an evaluation. 

  In the end, **** signed up for and paid for the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue Course, and he received the curriculum for the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue course. Yes, all of the glacier-related skills in the Alpinism 1 are in the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue Course. But he knew they weren't going to be doing rock climbing skills. And he knew that he was not going to attempt a summit climb of Mt. *****. This is why we have not honored his request for a refund.

  
  

  Customer Answer

  Date: 11/12/2024

   
  Complaint: 22521634
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  I have always acknowledged that the rock climbing day and related skills were not included in the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue course - the rock climbing skills are neither what I expected nor what I needed instruction in. And I did not expect to summit ************* on this course. However, I did expect to gain exposure or proficiency in all other skills of Alpinism I. 
  
  In my original email thread with ***** *******, ***** ******, and ***** Scottum, please note that I have compared my learning experience against that of the Alpinism I skills curriculum. The record of my experience has never been disputed nor challenged, and none of my concerns have ever been addressed - I was simply told that I was looking at the wrong curriculum, and that I had misunderstood the initial conversation. 
  
  However: The curriculum does not cover everything in Alpinism I. Nobody on staff would have told you that. We don't have any entry level employees at this time that would have made that kind of mistake. The curriculum you're referencing is from a different program. I have shown that ***** did indeed tell me everything in Alpinism I - except for the rock climbing day - is included in Glacier Skills.
  
  And: I said that everything in the Glacier Skills Course is included in the Alpinism 1, but you are thinking the other way around. I am sorry that you misunderstood what I said, but your expectation to cover that extra curriculum is baseless. I have also shown that ***** himself misunderstood our initial conversation.
  
  I have provided evidence of what I was actually told, and now that we have confirmed all the skills training from Alpinism I less the rock climbing portion should have been taught in the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue course, it is demonstrable that I definitely did not receive the full set of skills training from that curriculum. 
  
  I have attached the original thread as an attachment, and have attached the relevant pages from the curriculum again here for clarity. For reference, for the skills in black text, the participants were supposed to be exposed to the topic, and for skills in red text, the participants were supposed to achieve proficiency in that topic. I had added a E for exposure and P for proficiency in the column next to the taught skill for the actual level achieved. It is evident from the missing entries in the column that there is a severe lack of instruction of the Alpinism I skills in the areas of Knots & Ropework, Basic Ice Technique, Alpine Camp Techniques, Snow Travel, Glacier Travel, ****** Technique, Land Navigation, Snow Climbing Technique, Risk Management, and Snow Anchors.
  
  I provided my objective analysis to ***** ******, and he hid behind the client evaluations: When everyone on the program except one person is happy with the outcome, we've done our due diligence in researching as to whether a refund is due the unhappy party. In his mind, the course is successful when the majority of returned evaluations are positive. Notwithstanding his assertion that everyone on the program actually only means 2 of 5 participants, I had also previously told him that these evaluations do not consider if the course achieved its objectives on its own merit. To demonstrate, here is the Alpinism I skills curriculum expressed as the topic of concern with the number of skills actually taught out of the total number of skills:
  Knots & Ropework 7/12 
  Basic Ice Technique 4/12
  Alpine Camp Techniques 0/5
  Snow Travel 4/9
  Glacier Travel 5/6
  Snow Climbing Technique 0/5
  Land Navigation 0/6
  Risk Management 0/4
  Snow Anchors 3/8
  
  Again, my analysis of what was covered has never been disputed or challenged. Overall, only 23 of 67 skills, or 34% of the course curriculum was taught, and 4 of the 9 topics were not even attempted. At the conclusion of the course I had asked our guide what we missed in the curriculum, and he admitted that one thing we missed was 4-hours of practice and instruction in self-arrest and ascending. It is impossible to understand how ***** can objectively say that I received the curriculum for the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue course or the glacier related skills of Alpinism I.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  **** *******

  Business Response

  Date: 11/25/2024

  The list that **** is referencing has items that are part of the Alpinism 1 that are not included in the Glacier Skills Course. He knows this, yet he fails to see that there are things covered on the Rock and Summit days of the Alpinism 1, as well as in the corresponding evenings, besides just the climbing. There is additional instruction being done during those times on the Alpinism 1 that he is expecting to have been covered in the shorter course. There are also things that would have had to be covered (like snow camping and food storage) in order to have survived up on the mountain during the course. 
  Emils complaint conveys a sense that we took advantage of him, but he was originally interested in a course that was longer, more expensive, and would have had more content that would have been just review of skills that he said he already had. That is why I downsold him to a course that was less expensive and was more focused on the fundamental glacier skills that he was asking for. 
  According to the instructor, there was bad weather during part of the program. However, we have not received any complaints from any of the other participants on the program and have received two evaluations that gave shining reviews to the instructor and of the curriculum that was provided. According to what we were told by the instructor and the other participants, we have no reason to believe that the curriculum was lacking as dramatically as **** is portraying. He continues to conflate the Alpinism 1 and the Glacier Skills course. If the Resolution Consultant or another representative from the BBB would like to contact the other participants who have submitted reviews, we would be happy to provide contact information.
  
  

  Customer Answer

  Date: 12/11/2024

   
  Complaint: 22521634
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  In speaking with the Better Business Bureau, they advised that I should please request the exact curriculum and skills checklist for the Glacier Skills and Crevasse Rescue course so that we can compare it to my experience.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  **** *******

  Customer Answer

  Date: 12/16/2024

   
  Complaint: 22521634
  
  

  I received the response today from the business. They say they will no longer engage in this dispute since I was able to obtain a partial refund from my credit card company.

   

  Although the credit card provided a partial refund since I obtained partial instruction from this course, I feel that the company has not responded properly to the complaint or provided evidence for the course curriculum. They engaged in deceptive advertising and sold me the course under false pretenses, and as such I would like it noted in the BBB rating.

  
   

  Business Response

  Date: 12/16/2024

  **** has contested the charges through his credit card company, and even though we provided supporting evidence and offered to provide contact information for the other students who were more than satisfied with the course and its content, the credit card company ruled in his favor and refunded the charges. At this point, the matter has been resolved and there will be no further engagement with ****. We wish him the best in his future endeavors in the mountains.

• Initial Complaint

  Date:06/16/2024

  Type:Product Issues
  Status:

  AnsweredMore info

  Complaint statuses

  Resolved:

  The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.

  Unresolved:

  The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.

  Answered:

  The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.

  Unanswered:

  The business failed to respond to the dispute.

  Unpursuable:

  BBB is unable to locate the business.

  American Alpine Institute provided a Mt. ***** Skills and Climb Course from May 31-June2 for a fee of $1150 After attending the Mt. ***** Skills and Climb Course with three other participants from May 31 to June 2, I was concerned about the poor decisions made by the American Alpine Institute's staff and management during the trip. These decisions deviated from the intended purpose of the course and put our lives at risk. I hope that lessons can be learned from this experience to prevent such incidents in the future.Following the trip, I expected the American Alpine Institute to reach out to me to discuss my concerns and perhaps offer an apology. However, all I received was a routine end-of-course evaluation, which they send after every course. When I emailed my grievances, I was instructed to fill out the evaluation. If the complaints were found to be valid, the American Alpine Institute would conduct an internal investigation, which could take up to a month.I am disappointed by the response from the American Alpine Institute, and I am doubtful that anything substantial will come from an internal investigation, given the disorganization I have witnessed in my multiple dealings with the business

  Business Response

  Date: 06/17/2024

  To Whom it May ****************** American Alpine Institute takes all complaints seriously. However, due to the nature of our business, complaints cannot be processed quickly.
  
  We require input from several people, and at this point, I have limited input. The others who paid for the program, whom this individual says she is representing, have not come forward to speak to me yet. I did speak to the guide and another employee on the trip. However, we have not heard from anyone else directly impacted by the guide's decisions.
  
  In addition to this, the program is a three day program. The only complaints that have been received are about the third day. There are no complaints concerning the service that we provided for the other two days, either here or anywhere else. 

  I have attached my correspondence with this individual to this email.

  We are happy to finish working through our process with this complaint and believe that the inclusion of the BBB is premature. We sent this individual a note stating that it would take 30-days to review this, 12-days ago. I would very much like to give other people the opportunity to respond in order to provide the best service to the original complainant. 
  
  Please let me know your thoughts.
  
  ***********************

  Director

  American Alpine Institute